Podcast: Tips for Building a Rocketship from Canva’s Former Head of Product

Show Transcript:

Introduction    00:00:08    Welcome to the breakout growth podcast, where Sean Ellis interviews, leaders from the world’s fastest growing companies to get to the heart of what’s really driving their growth. And now here’s your host, Sean Ellis,  

Sean Ellis    00:00:24    On this episode of the breakout growth podcast, Ethan Gar and I chat with Georgia. Viddler former head of product at Canva, which makes it easy for people to create surprisingly great designs. So their most recent valuation was $6 billion, which probably makes them Australia’s fastest growing startup at this point. And Ethan, I have to admit Georgia blew my mind in this conversation. It’s a, probably one of my favorite, uh, episodes that we’ve we’ve had to date. Um, what did you find most insightful about the conversation? 

Ethan Garr   Yeah, Canva’s a rocket ship and she was absolutely awesome. I just think she had a really unique perspective on product driven growth based on her holding both marketing and growth roles in her past. And it was really interesting to see how she balances both gut end data to really shape the canvas product. 

Sean Ellis    Yeah, I thought it was actually interesting as well that, um, when I asked her about that journey from marketing to a product that she had seemed surprised that, uh, that I was surprised that she’d gone on that journey agency.  She seemed to think that most marketing people are pretty good product people. Um, in my experience in Silicon Valley, I see typically, uh, product people having more of a technical background. So it was, it was interesting to get her feedback on that, of that, that she thinks they should have more of a marketing background. 

Ethan Garr   Yeah. I think people, as they’ve listened to this episode are going to be really surprised. They’re going to find the episode really refreshing, cause it’s probably a lot of things that you wouldn’t think. Um, and it makes me wonder if canvas success is just partly because it’s not a Silicon Valley startup. It’s such a pleasure to use that. It’s clear that the product team is just really user oriented in their approach. 

Sean Ellis  Yeah. It’s um, it’s amazing how much great product can play a role in growth. And, uh, it actually reminds me of our conversation yesterday with Wes and Romley.  So two of the guys that are really leading the product led growth movement and, um, we, so Ethan and I had, uh, had a great conversation yesterday where we talked about how growth hacking compares to product led growth. Where are the similarities, where are the differences? And, um, we fortunately recorded the conversation. So, um, we will put a link on the, uh, homepage of breakout growth.net. Um, maybe even fully embed the video there and give you a chance to check that out. And I encourage you to look at that. 

Ethan Garr  Yeah, it was so much fun to do that. And I learned a lot just going through the process of chatting with those guys and with you. So I think our audience will love it. Perfect. So in the meantime, we should jump into our conversation with Georgia. Viddler  

Sean Ellis     00:02:55    Let’s do it.  

Sean Ellis    00:03:05    Welcome to the breakout growth podcast. 

Georgia Vidler    Thank you for having me good to be here.  

Sean Ellis   00:03:09    We’re really excited to have you on you’re just, uh, coming out of such an awesome, uh, I’m sure journey that you, that you had with Canva. And we’ll, we’ll get into that in a minute, but uh, also wanted to welcome my cohost. Ethan, Gar. Welcome Ethan. 

Ethan Garr Hey Sean. Hey, Georgia. Good to be with you. 

Sean Ellis Yes. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, I like looking at Canva, but just, just more, more generally, uh, at, uh, your journey. It’s really interesting that you, you started your career in marketing. It looks like, and maybe I didn’t even look far enough back again then, and then growth. And then eventually, uh, you were leading product at Canva. What, what was it that kind of led you to make that transition to product?  

Georgia Vidler   00:03:52    Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. I mean, I think in a way as well, I, I I’ve found that marketing people tend to be good product people. I don’t know if you guys have found the same thing, but I’ve found a lot of similarities between the two, um, kind of roles, but yeah, from very early on, to be honest, I wanted to be in product. I, um, started, uh, you know, years before I joined Canberra. Actually I was working at an incubator in here in Sydney. So this was back in maybe 2011, 2012. And it was, um, kind of mind blowing to me. I hadn’t heard of the concept of startups before. I didn’t know what this whole world entailed and I kind of entered this place where there were all these, you know, young people who were just like me, you know, trying to kind of change the world.  

Georgia Vidler   00:04:37    Um, and that was a very, very cool thing for me to say. And I kind of realized the impact you could have with, you know, comparatively little effort when you’re building products in the online space. Um, and so I kind of realized at that point, I really, really, really wanted to feel products. Um, and funnily enough, at the same time Campbell was kicking off. So around that time, I think Canva had, I think they’d launched a kind of early access page where you could, you know, get your get URL and not much else. Um, and then about a year later they launched and I, again, it was just mind blown by this product. Um, I was in marketing and it was a tool for marketers back then for marketers. So disposable  

Sean Ellis    00:05:18    For marketers. Yeah,  

Georgia Vidler   00:05:21    Exactly. So, um, I knew at that point I just desperately wanted to work at Canva and product. Um, but obviously had no skills in product. So I had to play the long game and try and get in on the marketing side and then eventually, uh, try and make my way into the product side, which luckily, luckily I did.  

Sean Ellis    00:05:39    That’s awesome. Did it, was it something that you really had to make the case on, on product or was, was it like you kinda got tapped for it or like how did you have the credibility to make that?  

Georgia Vidler   00:05:50    Yeah, it was a combination. It was a combination of making the case and kind of right, right. The right, right idea kind of thing. Um, you know, early on I was working on yeah. Growth and, and international growth, especially at Canva. And they really, really, really wanted to invest in that. So even though I was kind of saying, Hey, can I, do you mind if I move over to products, they were like, no, no, no, we need you on growth. Like on that. Cause that seems to be doing well. So eventually it kind of got to a stage where, you know, international growth got big enough that I’d hired in enough people and, um, kind of had some capacity and then put my hand up and said, how about now, do you think I could do a little bit, just a little bit of product and they kind of gave me a little yeah. All the olive branch. And I got, I got a bit of experience, which was cool.  

Ethan Garr    00:06:35    Speaking of putting my hand up, I just want to put my hand up and, uh, ask a quick question. Um, just for any of our audience, who’s not really familiar with canvas Sean. I’d love it. We actually use it to make our promos for this podcast, but could you just give, maybe generally describe it for our audience, just for anyone who’s not really familiar with what canvas is and does.  

Georgia Vidler   00:06:54    Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So Canva, I would say is a tool that turns anyone into a designer. Um, so you can have, you know, zero experience in design and make something pretty beautiful in almost no time at all. Um, and I think probably on a more meta level, what a lot of people don’t realize is that Campbell was created to kind of be the 21st century version of tools that you use every day, you know, word and PowerPoint, but that are not fit for purpose. Um, you know, a lot of people are using these tools for things they would not created for and the creating stuff that just looks pretty terrible. Um,  

Sean Ellis    00:07:30    I would be guilty of doing that.  

Georgia Vidler   00:07:33    You say it all the time, people making PowerPoint and stuff like that. Yeah. That was the idea was to kind of be as ubiquitous as, as, you know, a type of a word, but I’m coming at it from a new angle.  

Ethan Garr    00:07:47    Yeah. I think it actually gives you super powers as a layman non-designer so it’s, it’s definitely a really cool product. And I, I think our audience, if they haven’t checked it out will really enjoy it.  

Sean Ellis    00:07:58    The funny thing with Canva for me is that I kind of played around with it when I, when I’d first met the team like six years ago, um, on a, on a, on a trip to Sydney, somebody it’s like, what, what startups are interesting to get to know. And so I met, uh, Melanie, the CEO and some of the, some of the team. And then, um, but I, I kind of didn’t really have that much of a use case for it at that time, but what got me back into it, funny enough was my daughters. Um, we’re, we’re using it and they’re both in college now, but they were using it in its high school students. And, um, and they’re like, dad, you know, you can use Canva for that and we can help me with some social media stuff. And, um, so, so it’s kind of neat how, how it like bubbled back up. But I, I thought it was really interesting when I was looking at the timeline of when you join the Canva team. I think it was literally like a month before you joined that. I had met with the team there. Yeah. So what, I have no idea how big it was going to become, what, what did you see in Canva that made you feel like you want to be  

Georgia Vidler   00:09:03    Yeah. That’s yeah. It’s such a coincidence. Um, and that kind of sucks for you. I guess if you had to say  

Sean Ellis    00:09:12    Lucky hooking into things that just happened to work out really well. So,  

Georgia Vidler   00:09:19    Um, but no, I guess, yeah, I’m proud to say I, I did see it. I did see that it would be huge. And I think like I just kind of had this feeling that it would be the Google of design one day. Um, and I still believe that pretty strongly today to be honest. Um, I think what attracted me, as I said was the product just solved a problem specifically for me it felt like it was built for me. And it also felt like it had had love poured into it. I know that sounds kind of weird, but it just felt delightful. And that was kind of, that was an incredible thing to experience at the time. Um, alongside that it was just a really down to us team and culture and people who I kind of found as didn’t take themselves too seriously, which I thought was pretty cool, especially I was, you know, coming out of having studied advertising and being in this corporate environments. And I just kind of, it just seemed like this complete juxtaposition from that, like there’s all these people trying to be professional and wearing suits and, and, and camera doesn’t feel like that at all. They were like, it’s just a ridiculous thing. Um, and so I loved that part of the culture as well.  

Sean Ellis    00:10:25    Yeah. It’s, um, it’s really interesting because at the time that I had had met with the team there, I think part of the reason why I didn’t think it would necessarily be a big opportunity. It was because I had a friend who was trying to do something similar with, in, in a startup that he had. And, um, and I had just kind of seen him struggling with it, seeing the team, struggling with it. And it was, it was kind of helping people design better, but using more corporate assets and all the things that you kind of described that it wasn’t like, it didn’t, it didn’t have a consumer feel to it at all. It was more about like, how do you make better looking PowerPoint? And, and then, but it was like they were selling into, into like bigger corporates. And I think it’s, it’s just really interesting how getting that product formula right.  

Sean Ellis    00:11:21    And scoping the problem. Right. And kinda all of those pieces can make such a big difference. So I given that I’ve seen like that, you know, and eventually he ended up shutting down that, that product. And fortunately for him, he had a, a services business that continues to do really well to this day. But like, it’s kind of looking at the path not taken. It’s not like it was a slam dunk, just identifying that problem to, to be able to build a great business. What, what do you think ultimately was, was a key to Canva making it when so many others who have kind of played around in that space, haven’t had nearly that much success.  

Georgia Vidler   00:11:59    Yeah. I think it’s so many different things that had to convert at the wrong time and it always is. Um, so it’s like that perfect storm of kind of right idea, right. Time, right team, right. Investors. Um, but it also like came out at a time when Facebook was really going crazy. You know, this was kind of this era when everybody was realizing they could start a business online with almost no money. And Campbell was a tool that empowered almost anyone to do that. So yes, it was consumer focus, but it was for consumers to actually empower themselves to stop businesses and change their lives, you know, in a meaningful way. And I think that was a really powerful idea at that time. Um, and yeah, I think it’s kind of secondarily to that they, they had the right attitude and I think this is a really important one is that they invested super heavily in the product. Um, it was also at a time when, I don’t know, I’m sure you remember the kind of lean startup methodology and get a really crappy MVP out. And then just, And it was, you know, it was kind of rejecting that entire notion. They got funding from a pitch deck and then build a PR took ages, you know, over a year to build the first product that they launched with tons of pressure from investors. Um, and maybe that’s not as strange now, but back then it kind of was, um, because they really wanted to make a really, really, really good first impression. And that kind of, I think that was, that was really critical.  

Sean Ellis    00:13:27    Yeah. There’s, there’s definitely something that is so unique about Canva and how it’s approached it that, um, I mean, maybe not that unique, I mean, in, in the sense that even, even in the B2B businesses that Ethan and I have interviewed for the podcast, one of the big differentiators is being really end-user focused and almost taking a consumer approach to, to B to B. And so I think with, with Canva, obviously there’s gotta be a lot of B2B usage of the product, but it’s, it’s almost kind of like what we saw even at Dropbox where you solve the problem for the individual. And, and then, you know, you have enough individuals who love a product, then you, then you have bigger company opportunities there.  

Georgia Vidler   00:14:15    And this is the interesting thing that your story is very, very common. You know, we would find lots of people who were in high school university and they tell their parents and their parents go, huh, that might actually work for my work. And so when you build a product that, you know, a high school students, aren’t stupid when you build a product that even your, you know, young children in, in primary school could use, um, becomes it becomes something that can spread very quickly.  

Sean Ellis    00:14:41    Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s not about not being like smart enough to use products, but it’s, it’s one of those things that they don’t, they don’t have patience for things that aren’t kind of to use. And,  

Sean Ellis    00:14:52    And to be able to express themselves creatively, it’s not surprising that there would be a big draw in, in that group of people, but like, it’s not just kids that care about that. It’s, it’s all of us, no one wants to struggle with a product.  

Ethan Garr    00:15:05    No, exactly. And that also kind of creates that aha moment for the user. Right. They go, Oh, that was easy. I actually can do this. I actually might be creative. And having that confidence in our users was something we thought about a lot.  

Sean Ellis    00:15:22    Yeah. And I actually even remember on some of my early podcast designs that I did with canvas and people going, Oh, it doesn’t look so hot, you know? And, uh, I’m like, I could have said, forget this and, and, and just hire a professional to do these things. But I think it was one of those things that I took it as a challenge. And it’s like, you know what, I, I know I can do better. The tools are there. And, and I D I just need to be a little more obsessive with this. And now I feel like I can put something out that, um, may not be like a professional designer would do, but, you know, we’re, we’re not monetizing really this podcast. It’s more fun. And, and so like, it, it just, uh, like it, I think it works for our situation really well.  

Ethan Garr    00:16:04    Yeah, totally.  

Sean Ellis    00:16:07    So Ethan, uh, w thoughts?  

Ethan Garr    00:16:09    No, I was just going to second that I feel like any product where you find, you’re telling your 12 year old daughter about, uh, has, has a long shelf life. Right. I mean, you know, I already, there was a moment when my daughter was working on something for school and it was like, Oh, I think you could do that with canvas. I showed it to her and she, you know, she got right into it and it’s, you know, it’s just like the first time she picked up an iPhone when she was like three, you know, starts scrolling right through it. Like, it’s, you know, like it’s just so intuitive. And I think that’s the, the nice thing about the product is it’s really intuitive. So even though I do think, like I have the same experience where the first couple of times I used it, what I produced, wasn’t so great.  

Ethan Garr    00:16:45    Um, but as you’re kind of going around the edges, figuring out, you know, what you’re trying to do, you start to see, Oh, there’s this thing. Or there’s this, uh, sort of template that you can, you can draw on for the next time. And I think that really helps you, you know, the user engaged with it. Um, and once you start to use it a few times, you build that habit, uh, then you kind of feel like, Oh, I can do anything with this, which I can’t, but, uh, at least I feel better about the important piece, I think as well, we always sort of added as the tool kind of teaches you as you go. So you actually learn the fundamentals of good design as you use it. So yeah, your first go might not be perfect, but as you see, you know, a lot of our templates, you kind of start to go, Oh, okay. Maybe that kind of font goes to that kind of font and you need, you know, maybe you need something smaller. Next is something bigger and you kind of start to learn those fundamentals through the tool itself. Yep. Cool. So as you guys were, were building this, are there any key challenges that come to mind that you and the team had to overcome with the business? So many challenges? Yes. We tell, I mean, I think most recently that one of the biggest challenges, keeping canvas simple,  

Georgia Vidler   00:17:50    Actually on this kind of train of thought, you know, the bigger you’ll all get, you know, canvas 1500 people in are probably going to be 2000 people very soon. And when you’re a small team, you can keep the product simple because there aren’t that many people that want to add stuff to it. Um, but the bigger you get and especially the more product managers you get, the more people want to add, you know, a button to the core product every single quarter. Um, and if every team adds a button every quarter, you know, you’d become who exactly we wanted to not become very, very fast. And, you know, you kind of become the problem that you were created to solve, I guess. Um, so that was, that was a huge part of my role, you know, leading, leading product was how do we keep canvas simple and bake in a lot of the philosophies, um, that we use to create Canberra and the values that we use to build Canberra. And yeah, that was, that’s still a huge challenge today.  

Sean Ellis    00:18:47    Something that is, um, more kind of instincts driven or do you continue to do usability testing over time? Or can you start to see in metrics that you’re, that you’re slipping into something that’s, that’s maybe missing the Mark and more complex than it needs to be?  

Georgia Vidler   00:19:03    Yeah, it’s a combination. I mean, I guess it’s definitely in some way instincts, but I think instincts are born from you using the product in your experience, right? Like you build up on instinct. Um, and so we encourage everybody in the team to use kind of every day, especially product managers should be using canvas every day. And luckily it’s a tool that you can use to create awesome visuals for work. So it’s kind of, you know, it’s perfect for a product manager, um, which is really handy. Um, so I’d say, yeah, it’s, it’s somewhat instinct. It’s also our users tell us, right. You know, they, we, we get tons and tons of feedback every single day from users saying, Hey, this, this was annoying. Why did you put this here? Or why actually, you know, some users saying this is getting too complex. And so we would have big projects to simplify across the board. You know, um, design team would, would work on huge projects to simplify across the board. And it’s something that we talk about a lot because it’s kind of lose that you lose the game is, is, is really the idea at Canva.  

Sean Ellis    00:20:03    So on the metrics part of that question, did you, did you feel like, um, is there, is there anything from a, from a product management perspective that, that like metrics can be particularly helpful or is that really more growth and marketing, uh, in your, where you also have strengths, but I’m just curious if you kind of brought some of those metrics more to the product as well.  

Georgia Vidler   00:20:25    Yeah. I mean, of course metrics matter for product, right. If you’re not, if you’re not growing the use of your product, kind of what are you doing as a product person, but I don’t think that they should be the, be all and end all, um, of, you know, your kind of strategy. Right. So we would sometimes see, I guess that metrics would tell us maybe something was getting too complex or maybe people were getting stuck here. Um, but I think a lot of the time, yeah, it has to come from kind of your experience of the product. I’d say more generally though, product teams of course focus a huge amount on metrics. Um, but it’s kind of not this one size fits all approach. I think what I would often find is that it’s not that, you know, every product team is created equal. You’d have some product teams who are incredibly metrics focused, some product teams who, you know, actually sometimes their work cannot be measured. Um, and that’s, that’s sometimes. Okay. Um, you know, if you’re doing a big project to simplify an area of the product, you might find that it doesn’t move any number, but was it still worthwhile? Like, yes, it absolutely was. Um, well you want to make sure that you don’t screw up, you know, you don’t ruin any kind of, any of the numbers at the very least, it was perfectly acceptable, a candidate to make an improvement and not move a number.  

Sean Ellis    00:21:44    And then what about, like in terms of when a new feature may have been added, which, which maybe the answer is not to add new features as we talked about, maybe it’s about simplifying, but, um, if a new feature is added, obviously, obviously, um, you know, you’re going to see in the metrics if people used that new feature or not. And then, and then in the metrics, uh, if they use it once and never come back, it’s going to give you some sort of indication that maybe it wasn’t that valuable. Um, D did you guys spend a lot of time in kind of looking, looking at sort of feature usage and do we keep that feature or not based on how, how often it’s used once someone?  

Georgia Vidler   00:22:24    Yeah, I mean, we do look at that, although it doesn’t really paint you that, that good a picture. I think if you put a button at the top of Canva, people are going to click it, but that doesn’t mean it should have been put there. Um, and it’s actually very, very hard to take buttons away. People get very annoyed when you take buttons and, you know, you look at, you look at products like JIRA, um, and they had that problem hugely, right. They just added every button under the sun and then someone starts using it and you can’t take it away. Um, so yeah, I think being  

Sean Ellis    00:23:00    Really  

Georgia Vidler   00:23:00    Deliberate, like you can’t wait until you’re measuring feature usage to tell you whether or not that was a good idea, I think.  

Sean Ellis    00:23:07    Okay. And then what about like a North star metric? Did you guys have, uh, on a company level, something that, um, that everyone kind of aligned around in terms of saying like, yeah, this, this is, uh, we, we know we’re being successful as a business based on growth of this particular metric.  

Georgia Vidler   00:23:24    Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So at the company level we had monthly active users was the most important one that’s for sure in Canada, very, you know, they care a lot about happy active users, um, still to this day. And we kind of recently added, um, happy active users and teams because canvas really pushing into the team space, um, and kind of secondarily to that, of course revenue. Um, but I would say revenue is, yeah, it’s a, it is secondary it canvas still. Um, and it doesn’t happen, you know, once you get, once you get this big revenue becomes the number one. Um, but it’s, it’s still not, um, which is, which is kind of cool. Yeah.  

Sean Ellis    00:24:03    Yeah. And I, I think it’s one of those things that sometimes if you over optimize on growing revenue that, um, that’s where you can maybe make that revenue grow strongly for a little while. And then if your engagement and, and, you know, you’re essentially doing things in lieu of driving engagement,  

Georgia Vidler   00:24:22    People end up canceling their subscriptions. It’s always the ultimate trade-off right. Yeah. You can make more money, but you’ll, you’ll annoy a large majority of your most important users. Uh, we always say, you know, you can slap a buy button right on the top of Campbell and make a ton of money. Um, but is that, you know, is that a really good thing to do for the majority of our users? No,  

Sean Ellis    00:24:43    Right. Yeah. It seems really subtle on the, on the like upsells that are in there, which I don’t remember what it caught, what caused me to pay for premium, but, um, but I feel good about paying for premium there because I feel like I get a lot of value from it.  

Georgia Vidler   00:25:00    That’s great to know. I think when you, you know, when you, over-index on a metric, that’s really, mission-driven like happy, active users, revenue naturally follows. So I think it’s, you know, I mean, you gotta think if you’re making more active users, more happy, active users and teams, probably the revenue numbers going up and to the right as well. So that’s exactly how we thought about it. I mean, we looked at monthly active users as almost like our total addressable market of paying customers. Right. Like that’s our Tam that we can then go and convert. So you’ve got to have them first. So it’s really interesting that you worked across product marketing and growth. What do you think is an ideal way for startups to organize their teams based on that experience? Yeah. This is a really interesting question. And I don’t think that, I mean, structure is all about communication, right?  

Georgia Vidler   00:25:49    Because humans are fickle and we talked to the people next to us and we talk less and less to the people who are further and further away. So any structure that get the 1500 people and any structure you create is going to make some people talk and some people not talk. Um, so, you know, you can go vertical and certain people will collaborate better together. You’ll get more efficiencies between those people and then you’ll get more disconnection between the other people. Um, and then you go horizontal and then you go vertical again. I actually think it’s a natural ebb and flow or any company has to go through is to constantly, is to constantly think through, is this structure serving us? And have we reached a breaking point where communication has broken down so much that we then have to maybe reorganize and that, that happened constantly. It can, but you know, that’s interesting. So you actually saw it like at times  

Sean Ellis    00:26:44    Where like product marketing and growth, might’ve been separate and that other times where they were joined together and  

Georgia Vidler   00:26:49    Yeah. And obviously like, as you grow as well, it needs to change the different stages of the business. You need generally need different structures. Um, but yeah, we, I mean, we would actually think in the very, very early days of Canberra, it wasn’t necessarily cross-functional teams, which is, you know, the typical kind of product team right now is, you know, product design engineering data sometime, you know, in some cases marketing. Um, and we had that structure. Absolutely. But then you find when you decentralize marketing, then they don’t get efficiencies together as a team. Um, maybe messaging becomes disconnected. Um, but then we did centralize marketing eventually, um, because we wanted to build those efficiencies. We also kind of wanted to build a really kind of kickoff internal production team, um, that almost ended up acting like an internal agency, um, which has a ton of benefits as well. But of course, then it becomes distant from product. Um, and then you need to kind of go back the other way. So actually, just before I left, we were doing a kind of hybrid model where we had centralized marketing production teams and then embedded marketers in product teams. So it was kind of these Juul, Juul affinity to yeah. To your function and to your kind of area.  

Sean Ellis    00:28:02    And then once, is there a growth team involved in there somewhere? Or was it primarily marketing and product?  

Georgia Vidler   00:28:07    Yeah, so growth at Canva is really interesting. We had right up, I mean, it changed so many times we had, again, centralized growth for a good while. Then we tried to decentralize and it kind of ebbs and flows again like that. Um, most recently we had a camera’s structuring groups, so kind of verticals, um, that are, you know, cross-functional groups that kind of have a one big mission, a big product area that they own and go after. Um, and what we had most recently was, uh, because we wanted to funnel as a kind of one, one big project to be optimized kind of together and looked at as one cohesive piece. Uh, we did end up centralizing teams that owned the entire funnel. Um, but we kind of visualize them as not just servicing our customers, but servicing the business. So in a way they were vertical and you could think of the kind of product groups as horizontal. Um, so it was kind of, again, this hybrid model where you would have this centralized growth function and teams all together. Um, but also servicing and working very closely with the kind of core product groups, complicated question to answer, and also a complicated thing to do. I mean, I always thought organization design is product design, right? Like what you, how you create your company ends up how your product kind of looks and works and feels you have to think of it in those terms.  

Sean Ellis    00:29:30    Yeah. And I think if, if you, if you have a team that’s really excited about what you’re doing and you have like a really clear mission, um, regardless of the roles that, that individually play, if they, if they are all kind of celebrating the same outcome, it’s easier. Like regardless of how you organize, it’s easier to kind of keep people working well together. But, um, but I do think that there is a challenge as you, as you grow, as you said, you get 1500 people, people get further apart from each other and it is, it is possible to get so siloed that it’s, it’s more about your care to start to care more about we as a marketing team. And then as that team and, and almost more about that kind of delineation than even about what we’re doing overall as a company and the progress we’re making as a company, but it doesn’t sound like that was really,  

Georgia Vidler   00:30:22    Yeah, this is good. Yeah. And I think like you almost have to be very intentional about shaking it up. Like how could you get people talking? How can you get the comments in other teams and things like that. So that, so it’s knowledge spreads. I think Canva was very, very intentional about spreading knowledge and so many different ways. So, um,  

Sean Ellis    00:30:41    And he like all hands kind of meetings where, where everybody would hear about progress.  

Georgia Vidler   00:30:48    Yeah. Tons, I mean, you know, canvas a company that builds a tool for internal communication and visual Toms. So, you know, presenting, it’s a huge part of the culture. And, um, we would have, yeah, we would have these, what you’d call it. So we plan in seasons, not in quarters, um, kind of just a different thing. Um, but still three months, obviously at a time, and we’d have these big all hands effectively once every season where people would present progress, talk about their vision, what’s coming up and also what they’d achieved. And we’d also do that in the middle of the season. And then we also do it at the end of every week. And yet there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of cross collaboration and communication I cam official. Yeah. That sounds, it sounds amazing. And it sounds like, um, constant evolution, but with, with real purpose.  

Georgia Vidler   00:31:38    And I think that’s always how, you know, that service the most effective way to keep things on the right track. You, you, you, you touched on this a little bit, but we’ve seen a trend towards growth and product leadership sort of being combined in many companies. Do you, have you seen that trend, do you think it will end? Do you think it’ll continue? What do you think of it? Yeah, this is, I mean, it makes sense to me in theory, like combining them, if, as I said, if you’re not hearing product and you’re not thinking about growth, what are you doing? Um, but equally I, I, I do think that, you know, growth marketing can be quite distinct from product growth and obviously that they need to work hand in hand, but I think that you can split it along those lines, um, quite easily. Uh, I think product growth and product, um, is a tougher one to split, but equally in practice, you know, it does help to have someone that is solely focused on, you know, growth, um, and maybe cares more about the metrics and someone who is solely focused on vision and big bets and what are we doing next and simplifying the product, you know, all of these kinds of things. So, um, but I think you have to make sure that there is, you know, cause overlap can create friction, right. Overlap can create issues.  

Georgia Vidler   00:32:59    Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, but I think, again, it has to be based on your team, if you know your team, right? Like what are the skill sets in your team and what are going to compliment each other? If you, you might have a product leader who is incredible at growth and data and maybe your product needs that it needs to be based on your product as well. Um, and maybe that can be one person or maybe you have a product that doesn’t need that or needs, you know, someone solely focused on, on growth. Actually we ask the questions, we don’t answer it. I mean, obviously  

Sean Ellis    00:33:45    One in the company is playing some kind of a role in moving that daily active user number and pushing as much value to customers as, as they can. And, and kind of, you have clear control of some of those levers, particularly, I think, um, it’s, it’s obvious, it’s often under appreciated how much product actually plays a role in growth. I think historically people look much more to marketing and they thought much more about like, let’s just acquire more customers and that’s, and that’s how we grow.  

Georgia Vidler   00:34:16    Yeah. Because it’s a lot easier to attribute at the top of the funnel, right. For sanction is, is notoriously difficult to attribute any,  

Sean Ellis    00:34:26    Which just kind of sits in between the two groups, but kind of going all the way out to that acquisition side. Um, in, in the product role, did you, did you spend much time thinking or, you know, going forward as you, as you’d take on additional, um, heads of product roles, do you think, do you think it’s something that you really just kind of put the trust in a marketing team to figure out customer acquisition? Or is there a role you can play in helping to drive customer acquisition some somehow collaborating with, with that marketing team?  

Georgia Vidler   00:34:58    Yeah, I think definitely as a product leader, you have to care about acquisition because the way you acquire a customer very, very clearly generally determines their path into the product. Right. Um, and we found that like canvas is, uh, is a simple product. If you’re signing up today, it feels very simple. It is a very, very complex funnel. Um, so, you know, we have hundreds of design types. We have 50,000 templates, each of which, by the way, can be an acquisition, um, funnel or path, um, you know, multiple marketing channels, of course, you know, paid marketing, brand marketing, organic, um, you can come in as a free user, a pro user and enterprise team it’s, you know, over up, you know, all of this in over a hundred languages on multiple platforms. So like the amount of different ways someone can join Canva, um, usually affects their first experience, which then hugely affects their, their later experiences. So if you’re not thinking about that as a product person, that entire journey, um, I think you are, you’re definitely missing something,  

Sean Ellis    00:36:02    Especially when you talk about templates. Yeah. That’s clearly product, but you’re creating an acquisition opportunity each time that you, that you create new templates and ideally seeing a feedback loop of which, which templates are the ones that are actually most effective in that use case, which templates are most effective for ongoing users and, and just, you know, kind of having, having that, uh, informing it. But I think that’s that, that kind of move toward product led growth, where, where the product plays such an important part, even in acquisition is, uh, is, is kind of a newer way to think about things that, you know, five or 10 years ago,  

Georgia Vidler   00:36:43    Or a little less focused on. Yeah. And I think, I mean, we, I have the canvas, I have not been focused on, on the product, right. Like that’s always been part of its DNA. Um, but definitely in the early days we cared more about just getting any, you know, getting it in the hands of anyone we could. Um, and then as you grow, you kind of start to go, okay, we want to make sure that we acquire activated users. And actually the acquisition number that we care about is not just getting someone through the door. It’s getting someone through the door who then gets value. Um, and you can’t separate those two. Yeah. It was interesting. Cause as soon as Sean asked you about acquisition, you talked about that path into the product. And ultimately that always leads to this activation moment that, you know, and Sean and I really, we always talk about speed to value and getting people to that moment where they, they have that.  

Georgia Vidler   00:37:32    Aha. And that’s the first moment where you think, you know, you’re going to convert them into someone who really loves this product. So I’m curious what role, you know, your thoughts on activation, like specifically, like what role do you think activation typically plays in improving the scalability of new profitable customer acquisition channels? Yeah, I mean activation, yeah. As, as I said, it is about a user getting into your product and getting value, um, seeing value, you know, it can kiss a huge amount about users seeing value. The first time they joined, because what we found is it’s directly correlated with them coming back, seeing more value. And then, and then as we said, you know, converting to a paying customer, um, so what we would generally find is any, yeah, any acquisition channel we use, the only way we would scale it, um, is if it was showing that we would get those users through the door that we’re getting value, um, not just, you know, scaling it because we were, you know, getting tons of numbers.  

Sean Ellis    00:38:30    Yeah. So zillion people in, if they don’t get to the value,  

Georgia Vidler   00:38:33    It doesn’t matter would find this. Even, you know, the kind of relationship as you’re talking about between acquisition and activation, we would often, you often see in product and we’re always tracking activation. We also had another metric we looked at as double activation, which kind of was our proxy for retention. Um, and uh, we would find, Oh my God, activations dropped what’s happened. And then you see, Oh, marketing has gone and spent on this campaign that actually may be applied uses that were much broader than the ones we normally have. But you know, there’s such a direct link that you kind of, you can’t separate the two. Um, and this is the way that you can, you can scale profitably, I think is, is to focus on activation.  

Sean Ellis    00:39:15    Like one of the flaws that I see sometimes in, in product leaders is that they, they kind of feel like that, that it’s sort of one or two features away there. Like once the roadmap is complete, it’s, it’s gonna solve everything. Like a great, great product will solve everything. But if you, if you don’t think about that path into the product, you don’t think about how, how does that product connect with the needs of users that aren’t yet on that product and, and kind of connecting those stops that a great product, essentially, it’s kind of like a forest falls or a tree falls in the forest, then no, one’s there to hear it, that it really fall. It’s sort of like, is it really a great product if no one experienced  

Georgia Vidler   00:39:58    That’s right. And you have to be forensic about this stuff too. I remember, you know, years ago when we were first starting to think about activation, um, and as I said, you know, a lot of our templates up HODs into the product and say you would have, and we didn’t, we hadn’t, we didn’t have as many templates back then. Um, you know, this was kind of, it was kind of in the very early days. And we found that if you serve someone, you know, a template as close as possible to the thing they were looking for there probably I think it was about 15% more likely to activate. So came in, searching for, I really want a baby shower invitation that’s Safari theme, and you don’t serve them Safari theme, baby invitations. They’re not likely to create something of value and they’re not likely to see value in that fixed experience of your product. So yeah, these two things became very, very, very related.  

Sean Ellis    00:40:46    I’m hearing a lot of metrics talk for someone who maybe didn’t emphasize metrics so much and when you see a 15% improvement in conversion and if they find that template that’s, um, that’s, that’s awesome. When you can, when you can understand on that level, then you, then you can start to really turn up those levels.  

Georgia Vidler   00:41:05    Totally. Yeah. I thought that I new metrics. I just envelope.  

Sean Ellis    00:41:11    Yeah, no, I think it’s one of those things that you sometimes, um, it’s, it’s easy to forget how much of a role metrics sort of play day to day at the end of the, at the end of the day, it’s about a great product experience and delivering that to a lot of people, but the metrics can be a really important feedback loop and helping, you know, where are you falling down in trying to do and what things are really  

Sean Ellis    00:41:34    Working and how  

Georgia Vidler   00:41:34    Do you do more of the right stuff. It’s kind of clear that you see all of these levers connected together. I think, which is something Sean and I really, you know, we see successful company is really focused on how does this lever work with this one? So how does activation impact retention and engagement? Uh, and I, you know, that’s what I wanted. What I wanted to ask you about was how do you, how do you think about getting new customers to build a habit around a new product? Like what, how did, how did habit building come into focus for you in your role? Yeah, so engagement retention, these, as I said, super, super tricky. Um, and I think part of it is it, the entire product org is in a way focused on retention, um, improving the product, you know, we’ve found, improves retention, um, but it can be difficult.  

Georgia Vidler   00:42:27    I think when you, when your, your definition of retention is actually different to your users, um, so, you know, we, we actually ended up breaking retention and engagement down into two different definitions and kind of approach them as two separate things. So retention became, you know, a customer choosing Canva when they needed to design and engagement became, you know, customers realizing more needs for candidates. Um, and you don’t wanna, you don’t want to screw with, you know, the original one for the second one. So if someone comes to Canva every three months to design their business cards, because they print enough for a three month supply, you don’t want to annoy the hell out of that customer by saying, Hey, what about Instagram posts? Or, Hey, what about presentations when they’re very happy with your business Tod product? Um, and so this, you know, this is a, it’s again, another complex web at Canva. Um, but, uh, it became, that became the kind of two ways we started thinking about it. And we thought about what are the types of customers that are likely to, um, need to realize more needs or are likely to be, become more engaged if we educate them on other things that, you know, that might actually be useful for them? You know, one example is a customer comes in, you know, creating a logo. Um, they’re probably likely to be starting something. If you’re creating a logo, probably starting a business,  

Sean Ellis    00:43:49    What are the  

Georgia Vidler   00:43:50    Other things that can, could offer them that they might not have seen? Because they came in with that one track mind of, you know, creating a logo or maybe they do need business cards. Maybe they haven’t seen our presentation product. So we kind of tried to think about it in these who are the customers that actually more likely to, uh, be receptive to kind of engagement messages and who are not, um, and segmenting them that way.  

Sean Ellis    00:44:13    Interesting that you mentioned logo, like, um, we, we designed a logo for breakout growth that we would have never had the guts to try to design that myself, even though I tried to design some of the promos, but like, that’s, I went to 99 designs for that. But now that you say that, like, I  

Sean Ellis    00:44:32    Should have at least tried, maybe I could have figured out a way to do it. Okay. Um,  

Sean Ellis    00:44:38    And it just shows like how, how, like, because I didn’t connect, I knew Canva, but I didn’t connect my use case to Canada at that time. Then the opportunity of, of the slides that I do offer that, like, there’s so many different slide templates. There’s so many other design things that hang off of that, that I then did not consider canvas for. It just, it’s a, it’s a great example of like, uh, Y Y you want to make sure that you connect the dots between their needs and expand the, uh, realization of what those needs are. And, um, but at the same time, not annoy them by, by like hitting my head too, too many times.  

Ethan Garr    00:45:20    What Sean’s forgetting is that I actually did try to do the first version of the breakout growth.net logo on Canva. And  

Georgia Vidler   00:45:28    Let’s just say  

Ethan Garr    00:45:30    99 designs was a much better option. So  

Georgia Vidler   00:45:34    We got some work to do that,  

Sean Ellis    00:45:37    Or just need to put it in the hands of someone with talent.  

Georgia Vidler   00:45:43    User’s never wrong, you know, in this case, the user was  

Sean Ellis    00:45:49    So one of the last parts of the growth engine that I have a feeling, it was really important for canvas and it, and it’s been really important in, in most of the businesses that I’ve worked on. Um, I, it turns out that like, I, I think almost every business I’ve worked on was freemium. And, um, when you, yeah, when you have a free product, there’s a lot of difficulties with having a free version of a product. Like your, your biggest competitor becomes yourself. And there’s, there’s a lot of reasons not to do it. I think in my experience, the biggest reason to do it is that you get a lot more people experiencing that value, who then spread the word to other people. Like I guarantee you that my kids would not have been using Canva if they had to pay for it, but once they got the value out of it, they could show, look what I designed with Canva. You can do this too, dad, little, did they know it? Little slower learning curve, but, um, so how, how do you think about, about freemium, whether it’s at Canva or just in general and how that plays into referral?  

Georgia Vidler   00:46:57    Yeah, I think, I mean, the freemium model at Canva is not, it’s not just to give people a little taste of something and then to hope that they, um, it really comes from the Val a values perspective if they actually want to, you know, give something to the world and improve the world in a way and empower people with tools that they might not have had access to before. Um, and which then goes on to improve their lives, you know, like having access to a tool like this can mean the difference between you getting a job and not getting a job, because you created that killer resume that, you know, you wouldn’t have been able to do before, or, you know, creating a website for a business that you’re just getting off the ground and marketing it. Um, so yeah, the, the freemium model is not just about this.  

Georgia Vidler   00:47:43    Well, let’s hope everybody upgrades to pro it’s actually very much about what Campbell wants to do in the world, but I do obviously see benefits of that. And as you said, you know, the majority, you know, the majority of people, the Campbell wants to serve don’t have much money. That’s the whole point. Um, they don’t have much money to be buying those expensive tools or learning, you know, learning design or, or purchasing expensive software, um, to get the jobs done. So I think the entire, you can’t really expect that the entire world is going to upgrade to pro. And it’s pretty much about giving value to the world as much as it is getting upgrades. But the premium model is a really, really, really tough one because, you know, if somebody gets too much value out of the free product, then they’re not going to upgrade. Um, they’re not even going to knock on the door and see what’s behind there because they don’t need to. Um, so it becomes this tricky balance, but I think where we, where we really landed was the free product has to be crazy valuable, and pro product has to be way more valuable. That’s the long and the short of it.  

Sean Ellis    00:48:49    I think that’s a really great explanation of what it takes to make freemium work really well.  

Georgia Vidler   00:48:55    Yeah. And we would find, you know, in the early days when we first launched pro, um, we would get feedback, you know, Oh, it’s too expensive. And of course too expensive is always, it’s not valuable enough or I’m not, I don’t see value products. You always get feedback on price and it’s generally never back on price, right? Yeah, exactly. It doesn’t, it doesn’t give me any value. And so we had, you know, we spent a lot of time thinking about how can we make this the most ridiculously valuable product out there for this price. Um, and you know, I mean the content, I’m not sure if you upgraded because of the content plan, but that was a huge part of that strategy, which was, you know, we wanted to become the kind of Spotify, Netflix model of content, you know, for, for design. Um, and that’s been a huge one in, in giving people value. You get access to, you know, I dunno 50 million images, illustrations icons videos, and, and it’s insane for that amount. And you didn’t have to pay any more money when we added that feature. Um, and I think that’s a critical thing about subscription products is they have to grow in value over time because if they don’t grow in value and you pay the same price, they actually decrease in value in your mind. Right. Um, so that’s kind of how we thought about, yeah. The canvas subscription product.  

Sean Ellis    00:50:13    I know. And it was really like subtle now that I’m thinking back that you just, you, you see that content. And then, and then like this one’s free. There’s like a little crown or something on it. Or some, some kind of like Mark on it that lets you know, that certain ones  

Sean Ellis    00:50:28    Are free and certain ones are premium, but it’s not like it’s not sort of like banging you over the head to buy it. It’s like, here’s some valuable stuff you can have for free. And if you want even more stuff than, than that’s on the  

Georgia Vidler   00:50:40    Paid plan then.  

Ethan Garr    00:50:42    So I was just going to add, um, I also found with that, that the supporting communications that you guys do both in the app, uh, or excuse me in, uh, on the site and also, uh, through email, they’re really light touch that, you know, there’s nothing hitting you over the head. Like you should upgrade now, it’s, everything was about sort of helping you really understand that journey and find value, keep finding value in the, in the free product. So that eventually you, you re you hit, hit those edges where you’re like, Oh, I wish I had that.  

Georgia Vidler   00:51:10    I wish I had that. Yeah, no, that is deep in the DNA of the canvas product team. For sure. I mean, the pro-team has a hard time because everybody, everybody is kind of pushing against, um, against these, you know, pushing upgrades too hard because it ruins the whole ecosystem. Um, but equally you want to, it is incredibly valuable, right? So if someone is in a, in a space where they are likely to upgrade or they would actually get value out of it, then that’s when you want to be suggesting it.  

Sean Ellis    00:51:40    Yeah. So, so pretty much everyone listening to this podcast hopes one day to be on a rocket ship, like Canva hopes to hopes to go on the unicorn journey. And you, you spent a lot of years on that journey. Um, obviously some of them probably exhausting, some of them really exciting. You’d probably, if you compared it to a regular nine to five job, you would find that super boring, but how would you kind of yeah. Try to in a, in a couple of sentences, let someone know what it’s like to, to, to go through. I mean, what was, what was the sort of publicly stated valuation at the time you joined versus I want to say it’s, it’s many billions than what I’ve seen reported.  

Georgia Vidler   00:52:30    I’m not sure what the numbers are.  

Sean Ellis    00:52:32    Yeah, no, I understand. Those are like sensitive usually, but like the it’s it’s, it’s an incredibly valuable company. If it were in Silicon Valley, I think in Sydney, it probably makes it one of the top two or three of all the startups that have come out of Sydney.  

Georgia Vidler   00:52:48    Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Growing fastest growing startup in Australia, that’s for sure. Um, no, it is. I mean, in a word life-changing right. Like it, it definitely catapulted my career much further than I could have ever gone in that amount of time, probably anywhere else. Um, the amount I learned at that place, I just, I don’t know. I don’t know where else I will be able to learn that amount in that amount of time. And you also learn a lot about yourself, right? When you are put under pressure, constant pressure, um, you have to grow, um, you have to learn about yourself. You have to figure out why, why do I get stressed in these situations? What is it? That’s stressing me out what you know, and you have to constantly change yourself, look yourself.  

Sean Ellis    00:53:35    I actually like to do, especially since you’ve done so many different things, you have probably a really good idea of what’s the ideal type of company. What’s the ideal type of role.  

Georgia Vidler   00:53:44    Totally. Yeah. And I think that that was the most invaluable part of it for sure. Awesome. That’s awesome.  

Sean Ellis    00:53:52    You’re talking about it in terms of learning. Cause I want to ask one last question before we wrap,  

Georgia Vidler   00:53:57    What do you feel like you understand about growth now that you didn’t understand as well? A couple of years ago? Hmm. I think that, and I know we’ve spoken a lot about numbers, but I’d say growing a business is not about obsessing over numbers. You know, um, you have to take big risks and big risks are scary and you won’t necessarily be able to justify them with any number. Um, sometimes you do have to trust your gut and I know that’s not a popular viewpoint anymore necessarily, but it’s one I really believe. And it’s one, I still pay off for Canva at time and time and time again. So yeah. Trust your gut.  

Sean Ellis    00:54:33    I love that. Yeah. I, I feel like, um, I feel like too many people look for answers in the numbers. I think that the answer is often more from the gut and like what you would, how you capitalize on an opportunity that you’re seeing and the numbers are going to let you know if you, if you, if you went in the right direction or not. Yeah. But the answers are not in the numbers,  

Georgia Vidler   00:54:58    No chart is going to give you any good ideas.  

Sean Ellis    00:55:03    Qualitative. I have gotten some good ideas from qualitative where the numbers tell me everyone is getting messed up here. And then I have enough conversations with enough people. It’s like, Oh, why don’t we just try doing this? And it can, it can make a big difference. But, uh, yeah. And, and then, then I think even with that, you don’t want to just be chasing, chasing like, Oh, I’ll solve this problem to solve that problem. But having that kind of centralized vision of what it is that you’re trying to build and like really passionately, um, creating something that’s valuable for the world, which seems like Canva has, uh, kind of top to bottom from the very early days is, is really, um, has, has, uh, has a different way of Y being wired, uh, around that, that, um, has, has taken it a really long way. So people who are money hungry, just, you know, numbers hungry probably have a lot to learn if they just kind of see, okay, that, that like that’s, those are the money and the numbers are more of a, um, an output of doing everything else.  

Georgia Vidler   00:56:04    Exactly. And if you’re doing it for that, yeah. You probably won’t go too far. You’ll probably burn out pretty fast.  

Sean Ellis    00:56:12    Those are really like some of my key takeaways. I just, um, yeah, it just, it just feels like everything that you’ve said is, is  

Georgia Vidler   00:56:18    Like you, you didn’t need  

Sean Ellis    00:56:20    To overly obsess on trying to the organization, right. That, that you’ve, you’ve made tweaks along the way, but, but having, having credit clarity of what you guys were trying to do that every, every way you organize was not probably that broken and it’s good to try to drive improvement. And, um, and that it’s all about those happy active users and just, uh, just focusing on growing as many happy active users as you can over time, it’s rewarding and it’s, and it’s ultimately leading to a very valuable company. And, um, congratulations on that and whatever you plan to do next. So no, no specific hints you can send our way or you have the energy to jump on another rocket ship or,  

Georgia Vidler   00:57:07    Yeah, definitely. I mean, I’m going to build up the energy again. That’s for sure. I’m having a big rest. Um, yeah. Actually resting has been one of the best things I’ve done. Um, and funnily enough, COVID has been a blessing because I think I would have just gone and done a million things and traveled and which would’ve been great, but I, yeah, it’s been a good time the time for thinking then. Yeah. Um, and so yeah, I wanna, I would love to create my own rocket ship. That’s definitely the goal next. So  

Sean Ellis    00:57:38    It sounds like you got, you got all the components to be able to do it. I mean, it starts with, with really good product, but, um, having the, the marketing and growth background, um, you know, you’d be being able to pull together a team when you have strengths in a lot of different areas is, um, from what I’ve seen, like that’s, you’ve got the raw ingredients to, to do something awesome next, uh, especially if you’re  

Georgia Vidler   00:58:03    Yeah. Anything else you want to add? Ethan? Any last question? You know, if I’m hiring,  

Ethan Garr    00:58:10    I just wanted to say, like, I think one of the, kind of the key learnings for me is just that systematic doesn’t mean formulaic, um, is what I, you know, you, you mentioned like, uh, that the company didn’t start with an MVP, which is what everyone tells you, you know, that’s the way you do it and you didn’t, over-index on metrics. Um, but you’re not set. And again, I, I think you you’ve been very clear that doesn’t mean you don’t care about metrics. It just means that it’s not the be all end all, and you left us with this great quote, no chart is going to give you great ideas, which I’m going to use every day from now on.  

Georgia Vidler   00:58:40    So  

Sean Ellis    00:58:43    There’s a lot of good quotes I’m going to pull from this one so we could keep talking forever, but I’m sure you’ve got things to do today. Like, uh, go to the beach.  

Georgia Vidler   00:58:56    Yeah.  

Sean Ellis    00:58:57    Well hopefully you guys are you’re in Sydney, right? Like crazy flooding. It looks like that you guys have been having.  

Georgia Vidler   00:59:04    Yeah. Luckily not where I am, but yeah. All over my state actually. So, well,  

Sean Ellis    00:59:09    I’m sure if the sun is out today that you’re, um, appreciating that. So, um, thanks for taking the time out and sharing the journey. I learned a lot and for everyone tuning in, thanks for tuning in. Thank you very much, very much guys.  

Speaker 0    00:59:22    thanks for listening to the breakout growth podcast. Please take a moment to leave us a review on your favorite podcast platform and while you’re at it subscribe. So you never miss a show until next week.